Religion & Beliefs Thread views: 3336
 
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Renato
Member
12/05/01 06:06 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28399 / Re: gkmail #28380
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Dear GK,

I have the same respect for your friend's remark on richness than you. It was surely a very wise comment and prayer.

Much Peace,

Renato




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Renato
Member
12/05/01 06:12 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28400 / Re: gkmail #28384
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Dear GK,

We, Brazilian Spiritists, are all Christians in the sense we respect and follow Lord Jesus's true teachings as commented in "The Gospel Explained by the Spiritist Doctrine". We don't have either churches or riches. All our services are free of charge, mediums work for free and our motto is "Charity".

I hope knowing Spiritism may make you have hope in Christianism today.

Much Peace,

Renato




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Gerrit
Administrator
12/05/01 09:45 PM


Posts: 7295
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Member since: 01/08/00 09:58 AM
Last online: 02/11/20 01:42 PM
Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28422 / Re: gkmail #16020
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Now that my attention was pointed to this post... first of all, it would be nice if everyone could calm down and return to respectful descussion of the matter. Accusations of any nature will not contribute to the discussion but just inflame it.

Since I have heard quite a bit about communism in my philosophy and history classes... it seems to me though that there are significant differences. What you describe as "appeal to the poor", well, "You can be as lazy as you want, just be nice and after you are dead, you get to heaven whereas the wealthy bastards end up in hell." ... this statement is not quite accurate if you examine communism and Christianity. That is not at all what either is about. Inded, communism calls upon the individual's sense of responsibility, but due to the lack of it in many people, this had to fail... people just abuse the system, regardless whether it's communism or social capitalism. Marx assumed that everyone was good in the essence, but this preamble appears to be wrong. Indeed, this is where there is one major difference to orthodox Christians, as far as I have been told they assume everyone to be bad and sinners who need to turn away from the bad and be good, in simple terms. Now, in my personal opinion, the truth is right in the middle... basically every soul has both forms of energy, negative and positive. Which they use and let flourish, that is up to them. Nobody's soul at creation is good or bad, it just "is". Well, I don't want to get too far of the topic here... "Isn't it great if you are poor, the almighty 'God' is on your side against the rich?" It would be interesting to hear how you got to that conclusion. Indeed, it seems to me, looking at history, the Christian churches have in the past helped to suppress the poor... and helped keep the feudal system for a long time... well, all that has pretty much changed, but looking back at the past, this is the impression I got. While this may sound as criticism against Christian churches (and it is), I am not criticising Christian beliefs, as they are in essence pure and proper, but the power of churches especially in the middle ages was quite different from what Christianity in essence means. I hope I'm not offending anyone with these statements... no offense is intended, I'm merely stating how I feel about what happened back then.

Well, now back to the conflict that arose here... when I read over the posts, I realized that it seems to me that one thing led to another and originally things might have just started with a minor misunderstanding... just a feeling I have... and one misunderstanding led to another... maybe I'm wrong... but whatever the cause, I ask everyone to please become calm again. I know everyone is still more on edge due to the events of 9-11 and the consequences of that. Indeed, I fear that the worst is yet to come, the developments of a possible real escalation in the middle east are troublesome. We need to stand together and not quarral over little things. Especially as lightworkers we need to be able to forgive. As I can see both side's point of view to some extend, even though I cannot agree with the language starting to develop, I wanted to express my thoughts and ask you to respect each other's opinion. While we are limited to the written word as a form of communication, sometimes it is difficult to sense how words were meant, and may lead to a reaction that was not intended.

Love & Light
Gerrit


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Lpriyalife
Member
12/06/01 01:19 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28443 / Re: gkmail #16020
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Ok..another two cents. The comparison of Communism to Christanity doesn't really work..(in my opinion) because...Communisim was developed by men to control people and supposedly to keep everyone equal...ect ect ....Christianity is a way of life that people choose (not much of that in Communisim!)...A way to worship and a base to build a value system. The belief system is based on Christ and his teachings...It was not developed with any ill intent.Anyone who follows Christs teachings with a pure heart can't go wrong wheather we beleive he was the actual son of God or an incredible prophet or just a myth. His teachings were of love and faith. (Another thing I don't hear much about in realtion to Communism)......We as humans are falliable and because of that...in some cases Christianity as a "religion" has been tainted. However the very core of Christianity is GOOD...Unlike Communisim. Therefore...in my opinion Christianity at its core..is spiritual and communism at its core is Material and therefore at the most fundemental level...the comparison doesn't hold water.
With all due respect to everyone!

He who laughs.....lasts!

Love and Light,
Lori


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Joanne
Member
12/06/01 01:22 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28444 / Re: Gerrit #28422
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Thank you Gerrit for this reply. It is well said, better than I could of ever done it.. and I somehow felt you would of responded. Since September 11th events, things have not been the same here at the forum.. a lot of tension.. a lot of misundestanding as well. It saddens me to see this.. and I for one has been quiet because of this..I have been praying and sending light and will continue to do so. I have learnt so much already and continue to learn from you all everyday...and I thank you. Please, everyone, read carefully Gerrit's wonderful reply.. for I feel the same way. Thank you Brother Dear.

Let your heart guide you.
It whispers, so listen closely.



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gkmail
Member
12/06/01 10:41 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28486 / Re: diesel_02356 #28388
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diesel,

1. [The right to offer ones opinion is not predujice nor did I say you were predujice].

Every one has a right to express his opinion in a society that encourages freedom of speech. It is your judgement on communism : [....comparing some ones faith towards something as wrong as comunism. ... ] that I deem a prejudice.

Next time you judge something, back your arguements up by evidence, and not just attitudes.

2. Athough you did not call me prejudiced. You say the following in response to my comparison :

[This may sound harsh, but only to a blind and death man of the soul could these seem similar]

You admitted name-calling is wrong. Are you trying to do something that is wrong by calling it harsh ?

3. This is not a christian forum, as far as I know. If my intention is to launch an attack on christianity there are plenty of christian internet forums on the internet and I would post my opinions there, not here.

4. The reasons why communism does not work are many. It does not necessarily mean those reasons have anything to do with religions.

5. . [I do believe that most who live in a comminist society are not given the choices any living creature deserves. ]

This is your belief. Without evidences to back it up, it is just a belief without grounds. Beliefs that are based on propaganda material can only fool people who are ignorant, and ready to believe in anything. Don't be one of them.

GK




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gkmail
Member
12/06/01 11:21 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28492 / Re: Gerrit #28422
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Gerrit,

I am just pointing my observation out the similarities between christianity and communism. Of course, there are differences as well.

[Inded, communism calls upon the individual's sense of responsibility, but due to the lack of it in many people, this had to fail... people just abuse the system, regardless whether it's communism or social capitalism. Marx assumed that everyone was good in the essence, but this preamble appears to be wrong]

This is quite similiar to christianity in the sense that the biblical who assume Adam and Eve would obey his orders when he gave them the choice of partaking the tree of knowledge of good and evil (if he didn't give them the choice, according to the bible, the earth would be a very different place.)

["Isn't it great if you are poor, the almighty 'God' is on your side against the rich?" It would be interesting to hear how you got to that conclusion]

I have quoted some biblical verse in my previous posts on the bible's views with regard to the rich and poor. e.g. being rich is a lot more difficult to get to heaven.

To me, being rich does not automatically mean that the person is a bad person, nor is being poor automatically made a person good.

From the bible verses, however, I am of the opinion that it sides with the poor MORE than the rich.

In conclusion, my opinion is that both communism and christianity tries to address the gap between the rich and the poor as part of their doctrines. Of course, their solutions would not be totally identical; otherwise there would be no point in giving these solutions a different name.

But there are similiaries, e.g. communism: it is the capitalists who exploit the working class,

christianity : Proverbs 10:15 [ The wealth of the rich is their fortified city, but poverty is the ruin of the poor. ] Matthew 19:24 [Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."] and if the above is not enough, then look at the gosphel of James:

James 5:1 [Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.]

Hence my observation that 'both tries to appeal to the poor.....', Or, 'comfort' the poor. One suggest to the poor that they were exploited and to rise up and go for class struggles, the other tell them they will be rich in heaven.

GK






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diesel_02356
Member
12/06/01 07:03 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28529 / Re: gkmail #28486
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MM GK,
" Communism a set of ideas about how and why history moves and in what direction it is headed"
These ideas were developed mainly by V.I. Lenin from the writings of Marx.
"Christianity developed in the ministries of jesus. During his life time, jesus preached the gospel meaning good news, that god was coming to earth to be among his people in a special way. He warned his listeners to repent their sinful ways to be ready for the approaching kingdom of god." The Bible declares "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" and "BLESSED ARE THE PEACE MAKERS" just to name a few.
Communist usually refer to their beliefs and goals as socialist, but socialist do not consider them selves communist. Communist and Socialist both seek public ownership or regulation of the principle means of production, But most socialist FAVOR PEACEFUL and LEGAL METHODS to achieve their goals , while COMMUNIST have often used FORCE without REGARD to LAW. Used force without regard. Once again I wonder how Christianity and communism are alike.
Blessed Be




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gkmail
Member
12/06/01 11:52 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28564 / Re: diesel_02356 #28529
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disel,

I have already pointed out my observation on the similiarities between christianity and communism is based on the fact that both idealogies attempt to address the issue between the rich and the poor. And they differ on the part of the provided solutions.

On your comments on using force by communists, though, what do you think the christians in history used when they fought their religious wars ? Their words and the bible, only ?

GK

Edited by gkmail on 12/06/01 11:55 PM.




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Dragon
Member
12/07/01 02:26 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28578 / Re: gkmail #16020
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Mormons (not to offend any one, but this is straight fact..since I grew up in the mormon church and studied it very well.)
Have practiced communisim for a long Time!

Joseph Smith came up with the concept from the Lord. He called it the law of concentcration.

What is was is you gave everything to the church, and they would divied it up equaly to every member according to the need of things.

(this is also found in the new testiment in acts...infact a couple was killed by the Apostles because they "held back" some of there crop..or goods, or what ever it was.)

Today, the mormon church doesn't openly practice the Law of Concencration since Communisim is not Legal in the states...well, openly anyways, you are required to give to the church 10% of your net earnings and something called a "fast" offering.
Also, they have a great welfare program where they feed members of there church if they have no food.
(often, on my mission, we would just have people interested in our food and free money we would give out to memebers and then join the church for that...not because the believed, because they wanted free stuff...it was a sad situation...often they would get the stuff, then stop comming to church..that is untill they needed more stuff...(you have to come to church to get your free stuff, btw) then they would dissappear...not good at all!)


Also, as a mormon when you go to the temple and take out something called your endowments (which is nessary if you want to return to your Heavenly Father and Live with him and also to gain the highest of the kingdoms of Heaven called the celestrial kingdom--three are even yet 3 levels in that kingdom the highest kingdom is where you can gain "Godhood" and become a God, make your own planet, have inhabit it with people, who come from you and your Wifes (pologomy is nessary to become a God. yes, that is still being taught and they do still do this...but however they at this time have postponed any physical polgomy..only spiritual. Here is an example: My Grandpa (whom i love dearly) is a full time mormon, attends the temple everyweek, pays tithes, always goes to church and all meetings...he is consided a very faithful mormon...however, he is married to two women..but the catch is, only one is alive (physicaly.) You see, mormons believe in a temple marrage...once you marry in the temple you are "sealed" together forever..you are married for eternity! (always husband and wife!) Now, the current rules are you can marry only one person at a time! But if you wife dies, you can marry another woman in the temple and get sealed and be married for all time and eternity..thus, you will have two wifes. This is not looked down apon, and it is even encouraged to get sealed to your wife, even if it is your second.
There are rules however. If she has already been sealed to someone else, you can't seal your self to her..only get married for time. A woman can't be sealed to one then more man, but a man can be sealed to one or more women. Both have to be faithful mormons and been though all the steps of becoming a mormon. And, your last wife has to be dead in order to marry someone else...in the old history of the church, you could have more then one living wife.
Now, on to what I was answering about the law of concencration, or communisim as you may call it.
Even in the temple, you make a covenent (a very strong promise) to follow this law of concencration...even though it has been labled communisim and is legal in both canada and the states. Here is what it says (quoted):
"We are instructed to give unto you the Law of Consecration as contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, in connection with the Law of the Gospel and the Law of Sacrifice which you have already received. It is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion. "
then you just "bow your head and say "yes." "
no option to say no btw...unless you yell it out, then you get kicked out of the temple...but I have never heard or seen anyone that has happend too..
when I was on a mormon mission I was in the temple at least once a week...so i learned it inside out.

Anyways, I'm not putting this stuff down to put down the mormons or anyone else...
it is just interesting info...don't use it to attack mormons.
Mormons are good people, my bro. is still an active mormon (but has never been to the temple yet.)
They may believe things that seem wierd to us, but to them it is normal and the only way they can ever reach God and become like him (a god them selfs.)

I let them believe what they want to..if it brings them closer to God and makes them good people, then that is good for them, right?

I only share all of the religion because I think that to truly appeciate the Mormon religion, we must first understand it, what they teach and why they do teach it.

Mormons may have something like communisim..but you must remember, a lot of other people in the world out side of the states believe that communisim is the best way for things.

So we must understand that, and appreciate there views and ideas..even if we don't agree with them, we should respect them aswell.

(also many people in the world practice polgomy and are perfectly fine with it...it is just in our culter it is seen as something not good...remember, even in the old testiment (bible) many of the early Prophets practiced polgomy regularaly..ie Abraham, Israel (person, not a place!), and many others!

Anyways, that is my thought for the day..
bye!

Love light and peace!






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gkmail
Member
12/07/01 06:18 AM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28597 / Re: Dragon #28578
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Dragon,

Thank you for your information and wise remarks.

It is useful to remember that communism and christianity are ideologies, and communists and christians are people who believe in these ideas.

It is all too easy to make concluding remarks about the ideologies based on the behaviors of their believers. This is very dangerous, in my opinion.

Any person's behaviors are a product of many environmental factors, education, life experiences, cultures at the time.... to name a few.

Dragon, it sounds like you have travelled quite a bit. And this is a compliment from me. Your remarks on tolerance and respecting other cultures are similiar to my experiences with people I know who travelled widely.

Thanks again for your input.

GK




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Amethyst
Member
12/07/01 06:28 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28653 / Re: gkmail #16020
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Ya know, I keep telling myself, there are 2 things that ya just don't argue, LOL...And that's Religion and Politics.... it's real hard proving things that aren't tangible, obviously one is less tangible than the other here.... but....

I don't see anything much in the way of true "similarities" here, though I guess you can "twist" some things into similarities... heck, you can even weave our government into this statement at times with the "rich and the "poor" analogy.... Then again, if I work real hard, I think I can equate the Easter Bunny... and Santa Clause.... and maybe even the tooth fairy....

~BIG GOOFY TOOTHY GRIN~....heehee

Amethyst


I close my eyes to nothing, yet I question everything.


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gkmail
Member
12/08/01 03:00 PM


Re: Christianity and Communism - much similarities
Post: #28794 / Re: Amethyst #28653
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Amethyst,

Here is another twist :

Christian Socialism - led by J.F.D. Maurice, Charles Kingsley, and John Ludlow, two of them were Anglicans. Date of 'twist': early 18th century.

GK




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