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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 08:04 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118432 / Re: Tawmeeleus #118428
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@Tawmeeleus

You can believe for yourself that you can make a pen float, but can you proof this to me or anybody else? If you can't, then the above still applies. If you claim that you have divine knowledge that we don't, then get this tested so you can make it into a theory.


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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 08:11 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118433 / Re: Tawmeeleus #118428
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I would at this point reccommend you to watch videos and read about emergence.

This is a system wich does not require a designer.
However if we are talking about designers all designers and through that rule, would need a designer, so even if someone chooses to believe in god, would be worshipping the wrong entity here.

However i will give you a fundamental understanding.

You know about being social and about being a-social right?

Those who are social and those who are not.

Theism and a-theism.
Those who practice theism, and those who do not.

That is all it means and all it was ever intended to be.
However somehow i get the impression that non believers must be some kind of believers either to justify their own act of believing, or simply to have a competitor of sorts.

So i could either trace it back to self preservation and the other one being demonizing.

Something many people do actually, believer or not.
To me it simply feels like we are being pulled back to the lvl of believers or to the level of not needing proof, vs needing proof.
One is content not knowing anything, another is content knowing a whole lot.

So if it is comfort zones we are sensing oyt i`d advise you not to.
From start to finnish atheism has never been a religion or belief set.
You can read all about it, find out all about it by yourself.

There is another activity of wich i have forgotten the name of, but it simply comes down to accusing someone else of something you are going to do or have already done yourself.

So the dogmatic view you mentioned is something many atheists speak about when they confront for instance christianity.
As for belief and faith i`d advise you to pick up a dictionary and look it up, the defenitions come very close to another word: dellusion.

And don`t take these points as a knife aimed at you, i`m giving you an honest chance to go see for yourself.
And even though it is easy to discard any evidence or proof by saying you wouldn`t believe in it therefor it is not true, would be not only detrimental to yourself, but to others aswell.

The post i typed out before however was something i did from the top of my head so it isn`t as well versed as i had liked it to be since some misunderstanding apparently still took place.


Atheism for instance also isn`t about disproving god, it is about proving the effects of religion, proving that wich happens.

What they simply say is that especially because they cannot prove god, that they treat god as an uncertain factor not worth including their research in things that have nothing to do with it whatsoever.

So if someone is to say god cannot be proven, then so can no man, even if it is the pope himself, that there is one.
What we can prove however are the effects of religion within the human mind, since those are measurable effects having to do with psychology and the brains themself, and i must tell you the studies on those look very bad for any believer.

Even so the god question isn`t even relevant to an atheist, to an atheist god simply doesn`t exist because there is no measurable factor to prove or disprove his existence.

In the mean time because this point is evident religion takes it another step further and flat out gets in the way of science, it`s not the common believer who goes to atheist talks and presentations of science and go debate it, no they just sit at home commenting on it not even looking at it and in most cases if they do, it is for the purpose of solidifying the belief of their followers.
No matter how you slice it, god or no god let`s leave that in a grey area for now, you are impeding progress and while at it take along other people aswell and that is the unfairness and monstrocity that is religion.

So why don`t we all leave it in a grey area untill we know more?




i`m back


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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 08:12 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118434 / Re: Mathew #118431
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quote:

Why are people here lumping science with atheism & religion in the belief of a God or deity?



Because atheism is the default position. Disbelief is the default position until sufficient evidence is supported to the contrary. This is how evidence works.

There are religious scientists around the world. However, the science that they participate in is not a result of their religion. It is the result of their LACK of religion.

The only thing I feel worried about, is that religious people think that just because they are in the majority they can monopolize the world we live in. I couldn't care less about your fictional god, because I don't believe one exists. I'm more concerned when it comes to human rights and the things we can actually observe, since this is again something that religious institutes have been trying to monopolize for centuries.

In fact, aren't you being a little extremist yourself here by attacking atheists? Seems a little ironic if you ask me.


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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 08:15 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118435 / Re: SexyAtheist #118434
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I have to object here since religion does not hold the largest population.

Non believers are the biggest percentage.


ok that was a bit short so i`ll add as to make it a spam message.

But as said god and religion are not the same, however participating in a religions means you have some overwatch figure however you slice it, if you take wicca, there is nature, if you take satanism there is satan, if you take christianity there is god and jesus, if you take hinduism then there are myriad of gods and deities.

If you put enough people with different ideas to the point where they need to dominate in order to thrive then you will get ugly events, and well god or no god, or who`s ever god is meant, nobody even knows that for sure either, and wasn`t religion a choice?

Ok back in the day it was believe or die, now we are a little more sophisticated and make sure to make life miserable for others if not compliant to the religious rules or schools of thought.

It is divide and conquer.
Each religious leader gets a pedestal, they are much better off then any of their followers especially in lower classes of the population.

Do we really need this kind of you here, you there, fight?

This situation itself is proof of the bad things surrounding religion, some get angry at others because they simply do not agree with one another.

That is ludicris.
If evolution is so important then why do we still cling on the past like it is our salvation for the future while all situations and evidence, if seen by religious people or non religious people, proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is not.

I mean the whole universe is progress and about moving forward.

So why is it so hard to set aside the uncertainties of that wich we all know we simply cannot prove and focus on the things that we can prove?
i`m back

Edited by IJINFUHEN on 06/19/13 08:22 PM.




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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 08:21 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118436 / Re: Ijinfuhen #118435
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According to Wikipedia: "The CIA's World Factbook gives the world population as 7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 33.39% (of which Roman Catholic 18.85%, Protestant 8.15%, Orthodox 4.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.74%, Hindu 10.8%, Buddhist 6.77%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.22%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, atheists 2.01%. (2010 est.)"

Edited by SexyAtheist on 06/19/13 08:22 PM.




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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 08:26 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118437 / Re: SexyAtheist #118436
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Oh my bad for the wrong count.

Here then i`ll take me being wrong directly as an example then.

I was wrong about something, and since i don`t want to be wrong instead of going no man the cia is lying man, i simply get over it and amend my mistake.

That is all it takes and that simple step is something many many people cannot make, why?

Well a couple of reasons but then we would be delving into psychology more then what this topic is about.

But seriously is it so hard for people to do?

i`m back


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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 08:28 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118438 / Re: Ijinfuhen #118437
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You're already more a scientist then most religious leaders!


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Mathew
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06/19/13 08:32 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118439 / Re: SexyAtheist #118430
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G’day SexyAtheist

Do you know how many times I have heard this, yes atheism means a disbelief that they have a belief that God can’t ever exist but you still believe without proof God doesn’t exist, believers might not have proof as such but disbelievers can’t disprove God doesn’t exist either so that would mean atheism is of extremism however agnosticism is different. If I proved without a doubt this world doesn’t exist you would still believe it does, why?

I have spoken about this with a number of people who are & were atheists & not one of them said it wasn’t a belief now at least they are honest with themselves. & when I explained the difference of atheism to agnosticism to atheists they realised then they weren’t atheists after all but agnostic.

Your got a big bug bear with religion & believe it or not so have I to an extent but we are not talking about religion here just a belief in a God &/or deities, don’t keep mixing religion with the belief in God all the time that’s a huge mistake. Religion has caused a lot of unnecessary strife in this world however so has science with all it’s chemical, biological & nuclear mass destructive weapons plus look at how science has helped with the prolusion of the very thing we rely on for our survival, how blind & ignorant is that.

Atheism isn’t agnosticism, don’t keep getting these two mixed up as they are called two different things for a reason, one believes there can’t be a God because it’s not proven either way however atheism won’t or can’t acknowledge any such thing as a God existing period because that would prove atheism was the illusion not the belief in God.

Don’t get me wrong SexyAtheist I’m not religious but I do at this point believe in a creative consciousness of some kind so I’m sort of still agnostic sort of & now talking this over with various atheist friends of mine they proclaim themselves as agnostic now as they have a better understanding of what the difference is between atheism to agnosticism. In actual fact SexyAtheist I don’t agree with any ism or belief because this is a sure sign you needed an sim to be complete which shouldn’t be so but some people like yourself do which is fine because that I what you need but I don’t.

Love
Mathew


Acceptance of all leads to true spiritual awareness.


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Mathew
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06/19/13 08:45 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118440 / Re: SexyAtheist #118434
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A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)


The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Both extracts are from the following link:
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm

Acceptance of all leads to true spiritual awareness.


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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 08:46 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118441 / Re: Mathew #118439
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i think we are no longer in the atheism part and are just talking semantics here, belief is belief, non belief is non belief, thus you do not believ wich is the very definition of this statement.

First rule of science as tld by howard bloom: look at things as if you have never encountered them before and take it from there.

This should suffice in what i am trying to convey here.

So it never is a belief of any sort, kind, shape or form.
It is simply observing it for the first time even if encountered many times before, thus the possibility of a personal belief is not a factor in the end result.

This is to keep bias and biassing factors out of the fact determination.

If you mean the motivation why an atheist would be bent on crushing religion however, it still is not a belief, since it is not a matter of simply believing because there is a lack of proof for the reason why religion itself is bad.
They do it because of all the facts that prove religion is bad, so it is not their belief wich compells them to go against religion.
It are facts that compell them.

You might twist that into they believe religion is bad thus they go to extreme lengths to crush it, hence you`d describe their actions as extreme.

But it is simply fact reading, investigating and putting the knowledge that comes out of that into practice.

We all know deep down that religion is not right or righteous even, even so people would ignore it because their religion leaders or gospels tell them it is so, thus they do not present their own followers with fact, but keeping fact away because the religious leaders know that if their followers would be presented with the facts from start to finnish that they would no longer have any followers.

They even tell them, if anyone triesto show you facts that would go against the lord, excommunicate them, walk away, shield yourself off, close your mind and keep staring backward.

To me that sounds like an insult to my intelligence, i could never even consider doing such a thing.
because i like the proof.

Even if my life would become twice or even a multiple of that times easier, then i`d consider myself intelligently deceased.


i`m back


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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 08:47 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118442 / Re: Mathew #118439
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@Mathew

Oh boy, Wikipedia is really helping me out on this topic:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

Source: Wikipedia.

How you can say that atheism is both a disbelief and the belief that god can never exist is very strange to me. Where do you even get such a definition from?

If you have spoken with atheists who claim that atheism is more then just the rejection of belief in a god, then they were wrong. Very simple.

If you have a belief in a god, then you are a religious person. I can certainly understand that some people including yourself might feel that the word religion can leave a somewhat bad taste in someone's mouth, but that's just how we organize things. If you believe in a god, you're a theist (AKA a religious person), if you don't believe in any god, you're an atheist. Agnostics can swing either way.

Atheism IS agnosticism. The word agnosticism (in a broad sense) means 'uncertainty', and I already explained to you that nobody can ever be certain about anything. This includes atheists. And just for the record: atheism doesn't CLAIM to have absolute certainty about anything.

If you are truly interested in this topic, I can recommend looking up some video's on YouTube. Most popular atheists on YouTube are generally nice people and they will give you a better view of what atheists do in a positive light. Its really not as narrow minded as you think.

Edited by SexyAtheist on 06/19/13 08:48 PM.




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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 09:05 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118444 / Re: SexyAtheist #118442
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Well i`ll do you a favor for refference then.

I watch a lot of atheist related stuff on youtube since i frankly do not have the money nor the time to go to each individual seminar, talk or exposition they have to offer.

The Amazing Atheist
Richard Dawkins
Howard Bloom
Christopher Hitchens
Stephen Fry(Steven Fry either of these two is right)
James Rhandi (JREF organisation hosting TED talks)

There are standalone videos and followup videos on several topics.

But just type in any of these names on youtube and you will find a whole load of videos to choose from.
All very informative and also intellectually challenging.

They will explain a lot of things a lot better then i have right now, so it is really worth it.

i`m back


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SexyAtheist
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06/19/13 09:12 PM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118445 / Re: Ijinfuhen #118444
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Yes, I can definitely recommend them.

James Rhandi is also great indeed. What I like most about him is the fact that he never puts down any theists or paranormal person on the spot, he just says "if you can do it, you can do it".

The Amazing Atheist is great too, but you have to like his "shotgun approach" of social commentary. His style might not be for everybody.

Furthermore I can also recommend searching for Michael Shermer and Lawrence Krauss.


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Ijinfuhen
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06/19/13 09:33 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118449 / Re: SexyAtheist #118445
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I also started following the JREF organisation because of the hey i`m doing spiritual stuff and i want it proven so it becomes fact, not something wich is in the grey area.

Oh i have had dreams on winning that 1 million dollars alright
But even so i also got intimidated somewhat by it, more in the terms of if i am going to shoot for that million, i want to be 100% sure i`m paying my flight back from that 1 million

i`m back


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Mathew
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06/20/13 06:36 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118483 / Re: Ijinfuhen #118441
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G'day Ijinfuhen

There's a lot of people who disagree with you in that atheism isn't a belief system of a kind & I'm talking about atheists & agnostics alike. Atheists have a belief in God or deities don't exist, atheists can't prove God don't exists so it is only a belief that God doesn't exist unless they can prove otherwise but they can't, they can only believe a God or deities don't exist!!

Religion is right it's the people behind religion that's not right like communism, it should work but it doesn't because of the people behind it. Your looking at this the wrong way, you blame the isms & beliefs but it's the people behind these beliefs & isms that's not right or righteous like with atheism because not all atheists are extremists.

Your also lumping atheism in with proof or logic but where is the proof God doesn't exist but an atheist will still adamantly believe there isn't a God of some sort, where's the logic in this?

Sorry Ijinfuhen but the belief in atheism is totally illogical obviously.

Love
Mathew



Acceptance of all leads to true spiritual awareness.


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Mathew
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06/20/13 07:05 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118484 / Re: SexyAtheist #118442
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G'day SexyAtheist

Wikipedia has proven my point SexyAtheist that atheism has a belief that deities don't exist but where is your proof they don't exist so if you don't have proof it must be just a belief mustn't it???? It's quite logical as it's only a belief you have as you have no proof!!!

I will put it this way, if you don't have proof of anything what is it? It can only be a belief correct!!

You do indeed have a problem/conflict with religion & maybe you should look within not outwardly to solve this conflict of yours SexyAtheist as it won't do you any good at all. I myself have certain problems with religion but I don't blame religion itself but the people behind religion.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[4][5][6][7] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[8][9] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[9][10]

Agnosticism is the view that the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown and possibly unknowable. More specifically, agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.[1][2][3] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.[2] In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that humanity does not currently possess the requisite knowledge and/or reason to provide sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

There is a huge difference SexyAtheist so don't try to make them out to be the same they are named something different for a very good reason.

Love
Mathew






Acceptance of all leads to true spiritual awareness.


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Mathew
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06/20/13 07:27 PM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118485 / Re: Mathew #118484
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G'day All

I would also like to add if a scientist makes a claim he usually has proof so if atheism is supposed to be logical & of proof where is their proof of their claims? So logically all they have is a belief that deities can't exist not proof so it's obvious it's also of a belief system. This is the pot calling the kettle black which is slightly hypocritical isn't it???

Again if a scientist has to prove their claims where is the atheists proof of their claims?? If one hasn't got proof it must be a belief of such said claims nothing more!!

Love
Mathew

Acceptance of all leads to true spiritual awareness.

Edited by Mathew on 06/20/13 11:10 PM.




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Risingtide
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06/21/13 01:55 AM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118487 / Re: Mathew #118485
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The question should be "Do atheists have a belief system?". Clearly they do, one which does not include deities. However, this puts their belief system into a quite different category to the theists and religionists, so much so that they are not really comparable.



Amituofo
"Life knows its needs"



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SexyAtheist
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06/21/13 07:27 AM


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Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118488 / Re: Mathew #118484
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You didn't read Wikipedia very well Matthew. Try reading it again. Atheism is the REJECTION of belief.

Baldness is NOT a hair colour. Not collecting stamps is NOT a hobby. Unemployment is NOT a job. Do I need to spell it out even more?

Its obvious that atheism is not a belief. As long as you keep trying to convince yourself that it is, you're just deluding yourself. This goes to Risingtide as well. We can't have a proper discussion if you're simply uneducated on this subject.

On the topic of agnosticism: clearly you didn't read further into the Wikipedia article, which means you're just quote-mining to support your argument (which you did earlier with your Albert Einstein quotes as well).

Allow me to demonstrate:

"
Types of agnosticism



Agnostic atheism

The view of those who do not believe in the existence of any deity, but do not claim to know if a deity does or does not exist.[16]
Agnostic theism
The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.[16]
Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism
The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[17]
Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")
The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, if there is evidence, we can find something out."

Source: Wikipedia.

In short; agnosticism is more then what you make it out to be, and when you claim to be agnostic you can swing both ways.

quote:

The question should be "Do atheists have a belief system?". Clearly they do, one which does not include deities. However, this puts their belief system into a quite different category to the theists and religionists, so much so that they are not really comparable.



If this is the case, can you tell me the 'rules' of the atheist belief system? Or can you point me to an atheist bible, or church? There is no such things. Even when you can argue that a lot of atheists are secular humanists, this is all separate from atheism. Its not a part of their disbelief, nor does their disbelief imply anything else then disbelief that a god exists.

Edited by SexyAtheist on 06/21/13 07:33 AM.




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Tawmeeleus
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06/21/13 09:05 AM


Re: Atheism-Extremist Belief System or Not?
Post: #118492 / Re: SexyAtheist #118488
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I am not religious but I do believe in love.
I do not believe in a one god.
I think love covers my whole spectrum of belief.
Angels and guides are the way I understand the communication between this reality and the other reality.
If I imagine spirit as human form then it makes it easier to visualise.
I believe we are all energy and that we are not separate from that other reality but in a physical form it is harder to access than if we were just energy.
We in my opinion all have our beliefs or non beliefs it doesn't matter that they are different because we are all going to end up the same way and we all going to find out when we depart this world who was right and who was wrong.
Will it matter then as there will be no one to turn to and say ' I told you so'
I am curious to ask what do atheists expect to happen when they leave this world ?
If you believe in reincarnation then maybe in the next life roles could be reversed. we never really know unless we walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
take care
Tawmeeleus


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